In this episode, we explore the transformative impact of 3D printing and CAD software in orthotics and prosthetics through the insights of guest Christian du Toit. Chris discusses his journey, the challenges faced in South Africa, and how effective collaboration between clinicians and designers leads to better patient outcomes.
• The significance of CAD and digital tools in modern O&P • Chris's educational and professional background in orthotics • The evolution and skepticism towards 3D printing in the field • Challenges of sourcing materials and devices in South Africa • The importance of FDM and multi-jet fusion techniques • The necessity of communication for successful collaboration • Exploring future advancements in additive manufacturing
Special thanks to Advanced 3D for sponsoring this episode.
00:00:00.620 --> 00:00:03.810 Welcome to Season 10 of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast.
00:00:03.810 --> 00:00:11.788 This is where we chat with experts in the field, patients who use these devices, physical therapists and the vendors who make it all happen.
00:00:11.788 --> 00:00:20.131 Our goal To share stories, tips and insights that ultimately help our patients get the best possible outcomes.
00:00:20.131 --> 00:00:23.207 Tune in and join the conversation.
00:00:23.207 --> 00:00:27.310 We are thrilled you are here and hope it is the highlight of your day.
00:00:27.310 --> 00:00:37.215 Hello everyone, this is Brent Wright and Yoris Piels with the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast.
00:00:37.215 --> 00:00:48.563 Yoris is actually out gallivanting today, and so I have my colleague, katie with me, and I'm really looking forward to having this guest on as well.
00:00:48.563 --> 00:00:49.966 Katie, how are you doing?
00:00:50.546 --> 00:00:51.067 Really well.
00:00:51.067 --> 00:00:55.121 Just you know, another day in the life of O&P.
00:00:56.405 --> 00:00:57.828 So a question for you, katie.
00:00:57.828 --> 00:01:05.471 You know you've been with Advanced 3D there now for a little while and you've for lack of a better term drunk some of the kool-aid, right.
00:01:05.471 --> 00:01:17.269 So some lattice structures, powder bed fusion stuff, that sort of thing, what, what has surprised you the most in in the journey I guess that you've been on?
00:01:17.590 --> 00:01:17.730 I.
00:01:17.730 --> 00:01:24.391 I thought I had drunk the kool-aid before we started and that's why I was joining you.
00:01:24.391 --> 00:01:33.250 But I don't know if it's truly surprising, but it does get to me that if there's a problem, we can fix it.
00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:47.441 The weirder, more complicated, messed up, alignment, fit, whatever it is, whether digital is used, throughout the whole process or just the beginning, just the middle, just the end.
00:01:47.441 --> 00:01:56.802 I can't imagine now a world where I'm not involving CAD as part of my process.
00:01:56.962 --> 00:01:59.849 Yeah, well, and then speak a little bit just to.
00:01:59.849 --> 00:02:05.611 I mean, you've used a ton of softwares, right, and now you're using a lot of Freeform.
00:02:05.611 --> 00:02:15.153 For those that are not using Freeform, what would you say is a benefit to Octon Freeform?
00:02:15.379 --> 00:02:39.332 Well, coming off of Mesh Mixer and Fusion 360 as my primary programs before I joined you at Advanced 3D, consistency is a big thing being able to take measurements compared to Mesh Mixer.
00:02:39.332 --> 00:02:46.881 Also, mesh Mixer and we just knew it was going to crash and you just dealt with it and you kept going.
00:02:46.881 --> 00:02:48.804 So pretty fun not to have crashes.
00:02:48.804 --> 00:03:04.645 And as far as the number of times I would get stuck in Fusion 360, trying to work with organic shapes and it just straight, refusing to keep going, just straight, refusing to keep going, it's.
00:03:04.645 --> 00:03:24.056 That's not what it's like in free form, um, in that you and I've gotten to train a few more people, um, on using free form and helping them, and since I recently have only been learning myself, it's interesting because it's very much okay.
00:03:24.216 --> 00:03:26.858 So tell me what you would do now.
00:03:26.858 --> 00:03:31.920 And they're like what do you mean?
00:03:31.920 --> 00:03:32.322 I'm like no, no, no.
00:03:32.322 --> 00:03:34.164 Just tell me as a prosthetist, what are you doing?
00:03:34.164 --> 00:03:35.548 Are you getting out a sure form?
00:03:35.548 --> 00:03:36.049 Is it a half round?
00:03:36.049 --> 00:03:37.853 What are you trying to do?
00:03:37.853 --> 00:03:46.533 And I will tell you which button will bring up the tool you want, but it's still what you want to do.
00:03:46.533 --> 00:03:48.006 Are you doing a global reduction?
00:03:48.006 --> 00:03:55.229 And I think that is helpful to people because they're like well, I would do this in my plaster.
00:03:55.229 --> 00:03:58.007 I'm like perfect, that is exactly what we're going to do.
00:03:58.007 --> 00:03:59.860 Then we're just going to do it digitally.
00:04:00.562 --> 00:04:32.427 Versus other softwares, it's a little more convoluted that this seems like an easy transition into doing it digital, but you're still doing what you know how to do yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's right, and I think using the haptic device also along with it I call it the digital sure form there's a lot of clinical stuff that happens, that very much moves over with the Hapic device, so I think that's great.
00:04:32.427 --> 00:04:37.471 I also want to say that this episode is brought to you by Advance 3D.
00:04:37.471 --> 00:04:40.488 Advance 3D is a contract manufacturer.
00:04:40.488 --> 00:04:54.192 We do orthotics and prosthetics, but we also do a myriad of other things, which is a lot of fun, and so not only do we have nylon 12, nylon 11, color is one of our specialties as well.
00:04:54.192 --> 00:05:08.295 We've added multi TPUs, so any of the TPUs that you want, or the TPAs, and then our newest material with the PK5000 AM is a real game changer, I believe.
00:05:08.295 --> 00:05:09.862 So I'm excited about that.
00:05:09.862 --> 00:05:11.507 But we meet you wherever you are.
00:05:11.507 --> 00:05:16.466 So whether you're just learning and you're trying to figure out, hey, what scanner do I need to use?
00:05:16.466 --> 00:05:28.670 Or if you want help with software automation, what have you or you say, hey, I just want you to take care of it all and I want to see patients and play golf, we can do that for you as well.
00:05:28.829 --> 00:05:36.321 So, katie, we have a long-suffering guest, but we're going to have a lot of fun with our guest today because he is a free forum user as well.
00:05:36.321 --> 00:05:40.247 So I want to welcome Christian Dutoy to the podcast and thank you so much for making some time.
00:05:40.247 --> 00:05:42.009 So I've known Christian for, or Chris.
00:05:42.009 --> 00:05:44.334 He said for, the podcast, and thank you so much for making some time.
00:05:44.334 --> 00:05:46.577 So I've known Christian for Chris.
00:05:46.577 --> 00:05:49.747 He said for the US people, we can call him Chris.
00:05:49.807 --> 00:05:51.771 So I've known Chris for a while.
00:05:51.771 --> 00:05:53.120 I love the stuff that he's doing.
00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:00.084 I love the way that he thinks about the problems in the digital space and I think we have a lot of common interests.
00:06:00.084 --> 00:06:05.574 He's in Cape Town, south Africa, so that's pretty fun.
00:06:05.574 --> 00:06:12.529 So having international guests is always fun as well, and so we talk at all hours of the day, don't we Chris?
00:06:12.529 --> 00:06:20.011 So we will bounce ideas off each other, but he does some beautiful work, specifically in the orthotic side of things.
00:06:20.011 --> 00:06:25.112 We're going to pick his brain a little bit on that and then with his newest venture as well.
00:06:25.112 --> 00:06:44.110 But one of the things that Chris does is he there's not only function but makes a beautiful device, and so if you check him out on LinkedIn and look at his header and down through his posts, you'll see why people like Formlabs and HP want his stuff in their booths because it's just beautiful and functional at the same time.
00:06:44.110 --> 00:06:47.129 So, chris, welcome to the show.
00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:48.750 Hey Brent, Thanks a lot, AKV.
00:06:48.750 --> 00:06:51.286 Thanks for having me, man.
00:06:52.560 --> 00:07:01.752 So, chris, we always start off with this question, and yours is usually the one asking it but how did you get involved in orthotics and prosthetics?
00:07:03.781 --> 00:07:07.752 Yeah, I studied orthotics and prosthetics in South Africa.
00:07:07.752 --> 00:07:09.627 I took a year off after school.
00:07:09.627 --> 00:07:10.805 I didn't know what I wanted to do.
00:07:10.805 --> 00:07:16.793 To be honest, I shadowed with many clinicians surgeons, therapists of all kinds.
00:07:16.793 --> 00:07:21.447 I've always liked working with my hands and my grandfather was a doctor.
00:07:21.447 --> 00:07:24.730 I admired how he helped people and I wanted to combine the two.
00:07:24.730 --> 00:07:25.307 And when I found orthotics and prosthetics, I knew it was a doctor.
00:07:25.307 --> 00:07:25.601 I admired how he helped people and I wanted to combine the two.
00:07:25.601 --> 00:07:31.406 And when I found orthotics and prosthetics I knew it was a match and so I went to go study.
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:46.146 Back then we only had a national diploma, which was a three-year course, and you could go further from that to a BTEC, which is another two years, of which one is an internship year, and so I did the BTEC.
00:07:46.146 --> 00:07:49.209 I ended up working for the government for a year or two.
00:07:49.209 --> 00:08:04.331 I was involved in a private practice inside a physical rehabilitation hospital for five years and then I worked for another private practice here in Cape Town and then I took a jump for the UAE, did a quick stint there.
00:08:04.331 --> 00:08:19.228 I learned quite a lot and then I came back, furthered my studies for another year or two and started doing free form and just work for everyone where I can, anyone who wants to do any kind of 3D work.
00:08:19.228 --> 00:08:23.000 So that's the basic educational history, I think, for me.
00:08:23.201 --> 00:08:29.031 I still remember the day when I first heard people are going to start 3D printing prosthetics.
00:08:29.031 --> 00:08:30.053 I laughed.
00:08:30.053 --> 00:08:32.725 I was all carbon fiber lamination, let's go.
00:08:32.725 --> 00:08:33.727 That was my thing.
00:08:33.727 --> 00:08:34.570 It still is.
00:08:34.570 --> 00:08:35.611 I love carbon fiber.
00:08:35.611 --> 00:08:36.461 I love pre-preg.
00:08:36.461 --> 00:08:38.365 That's my new thing that I'm excited about.
00:08:38.365 --> 00:08:39.187 But I laughed.
00:08:39.187 --> 00:08:41.422 I really thought this can't be strong enough.
00:08:41.422 --> 00:08:43.846 The things I've seen is just impossible.
00:08:43.846 --> 00:08:46.913 Little did I know what lies ahead of me.
00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:57.511 When I went to the UAE I went to go learn from two really brilliant German clinicians and in their clinic they already applied quite a bit of additive manufacturing.
00:08:57.511 --> 00:09:01.750 So that opened my eyes and I saw there is a place for this.
00:09:01.750 --> 00:09:04.488 That's where I saw Freeform for the first time.
00:09:04.488 --> 00:09:07.047 These guys strictly use Freeform.
00:09:07.047 --> 00:09:10.832 Even if they're going to laminate, they obviously have the great milling machines.
00:09:10.832 --> 00:09:13.629 So all their positives are mold and not plaster.
00:09:14.900 --> 00:09:16.948 That's where I saw the power of the software.
00:09:16.948 --> 00:09:19.647 That got me really excited.
00:09:19.647 --> 00:09:21.287 I wanted to carry on learning.
00:09:21.287 --> 00:09:27.528 So I put the bullet and invested my own money into it and just started learning the software.
00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:38.926 And yeah, all of a sudden, I was doing things that I never thought I would before and I just started testing where is this applicable, where isn't it applicable and where does it have value?
00:09:38.926 --> 00:09:39.749 For where I am?
00:09:39.749 --> 00:09:43.609 And that's basically the short of it.
00:09:43.609 --> 00:09:59.211 I remember also, when I was in UAE, my boss sold me his little artillery Sidewinder X1, and that thing saved my life, man, because when I arrived there it was the beginning of COVID, so we were locked down and social was very low.
00:09:59.211 --> 00:10:02.870 So that thing kept me busy and I just persisted.
00:10:02.870 --> 00:10:12.399 I mean, I broke it quite a few times you know the journey of a tinkerer and yeah, that really just got me my foundation of actual 3D printing.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:23.196 And then, when I came back home to South Africa, I got access to an Octon license on an educational basis, as well as the one you like, the Lattice Systems, what is it called?
00:10:23.500 --> 00:10:26.568 When we were using NTOP Entopology yes, Entopology.
00:10:26.870 --> 00:10:27.580 That's great so.
00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.289 I had access to these softwares and I really saw the potential.
00:10:30.289 --> 00:10:35.770 This was more or less in the time of the big hype.
00:10:35.770 --> 00:10:39.309 So now you see all these other software companies coming up.
00:10:39.309 --> 00:10:42.480 They're making bespoke software specifically tailored for orthotics and prosthetics.
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:44.721 And they're making bespoke software specifically tailored for orthotics and prosthetics.
00:10:44.721 --> 00:10:49.745 And so I started looking around at these softwares, seeing if there's benefits to them.
00:10:49.745 --> 00:10:54.886 What's the difference between this and a powerful piece of software like Opton?
00:10:54.886 --> 00:10:56.668 And each one has its place.
00:10:57.508 --> 00:11:01.950 And so for quite a while I was doing some consulting work for Jess Podo.
00:11:01.950 --> 00:11:05.331 I really learned a lot about the market as well.
00:11:05.331 --> 00:11:07.692 We went to OT World that was great.
00:11:07.692 --> 00:11:14.015 Saw some of your stuff there, as you know, my stuff as well, and that brings me to where I am now.
00:11:14.015 --> 00:11:27.508 So during these three past three years basically did freelance work and, just like yourself, offering, you know, additive manufacturing services whether it's design or 3D printing to the OMP community out there.
00:11:27.508 --> 00:11:32.410 Also, I still have my practice running in the background so I can see my own patients.
00:11:32.410 --> 00:11:36.791 But right now I've made the move to Cape Town and just started out.
00:11:36.791 --> 00:11:40.451 So it's very small still, just a few printers standing around.
00:11:40.451 --> 00:11:54.827 But we're focusing on doing 3D printing for people where it's needed, like government places where there's no lack of resources or skill sets, or NGOs, is trying to reach out to people who can't afford processes.
00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.589 So I mean, that's quite a journey, chris.
00:11:57.589 --> 00:12:04.927 I think one of the things that's interesting is it seems like each step of your journey actually build on itself.
00:12:04.927 --> 00:12:11.442 So obviously you had your foundational educational stuff, stuff, and it sounds like you were very much involved in the technical side.
00:12:11.442 --> 00:12:15.292 If you love the carbon fiber, so you were using your hands plaster all that stuff.
00:12:15.292 --> 00:12:21.288 Do you feel like that has given you um an advantage?
00:12:21.288 --> 00:12:24.472 Moving now into 3D, Definitely.
00:12:24.513 --> 00:12:24.832 I think.
00:12:24.832 --> 00:12:26.975 So I think you know as someone.
00:12:26.975 --> 00:12:32.062 You can't just put a bunch of designers together, as you know, and then they're going to make orthotics and prosthetics.
00:12:32.062 --> 00:12:36.231 You need a clinician's insight into that, and I think you know.
00:12:36.231 --> 00:12:46.712 For me, still, it would be great if we can say let's 3D print everything, but there's still areas where you have to use carbon fiber and you have to do other methods of manufacturing.
00:12:46.712 --> 00:12:52.793 So I think it's really important to learn what is applicable and what is appropriate for where you are.
00:12:52.793 --> 00:12:55.106 South Africa is a little bit different.
00:12:55.106 --> 00:13:04.232 It's a lower middle income class country, so we really have to identify what will work here, what makes sense and how do we apply it.
00:13:04.232 --> 00:13:11.846 Of course, we can't really afford just buying multi-jet fusions left and right, and our market is much more smaller.
00:13:11.846 --> 00:13:30.866 Our economy is very different to yours, so we have to think about it a little bit more carefully and that's why we as I, as a company, as a business that's my vision is to identify these areas where we can fill the gap by bringing alternative solutions.
00:13:31.107 --> 00:13:57.500 So with the 3D printing side of things, I mean there's obviously you don't need a whole bunch of materials and a big lab and that sort of thing, but when you're looking out and the landscape and say in the present, and then now in the future, do you believe that the 3D printing side of things also helps with other parts?
00:13:57.500 --> 00:14:01.990 Because I know we have stuff that comes in from Iceland.
00:14:01.990 --> 00:14:12.426 I don't know how you've got the Autobach Iceland feet coming in from all over the place, different pieces and parts and 3D printing can solve a lot of that stuff without having to order that.
00:14:12.426 --> 00:14:23.683 I'd love for you to share a little bit about your thought process of specifically that when you're in South Africa, where it does take time to get stuff in, so why not 3D print it?
00:14:24.265 --> 00:14:24.807 That's great.
00:14:24.807 --> 00:14:29.710 That's a key principle here when you are out there looking for what is applicable.
00:14:29.710 --> 00:14:38.369 So you know we need to understand that in South Africa we're on the southern tip of Africa, so everything takes long and there's customs and it gets stuck and then it gets lost.
00:14:38.369 --> 00:14:39.945 This has happened many times.
00:14:39.945 --> 00:14:47.634 So even if you, like you know the beautiful device coming from Invent Medical, it's going to take a long time to reach you.
00:14:47.634 --> 00:14:51.149 Sometimes the patient might just grow out of the device before you get it.
00:14:51.149 --> 00:14:53.125 So that's not applicable.
00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:59.133 It's very important that the companies that I like to work with that they are more open platform.
00:14:59.133 --> 00:15:08.511 So you know, like let's take Gespoto, for instance they're not telling you, listen, you've got to use our materials, our machine, our white-labeled, up-priced machine.
00:15:08.511 --> 00:15:28.289 You know they're not strict with what they want to offer no-transcript, the kind of services that will work here in South Africa.
00:15:28.289 --> 00:15:39.207 So you know we really need to be careful when we select these things because, like I said, you can't just buy a multi-jet fusion and then you didn't do your homework.
00:15:39.207 --> 00:15:43.328 You really need to think about the country and where you are and why this is applicable.
00:15:43.328 --> 00:15:52.663 So FDM is really applicable in our country simply because we don't have a lot of SRS or multi-jet fusion services and it's quite expensive still here.
00:15:52.663 --> 00:16:06.923 But there's a lot of things that can be solved with FDM and it's just as great as if it was multi-jet fusion or traditional, and sometimes it's more cost effective, sometimes it's beneficial for the user, sometimes beneficial for the clinician.
00:16:06.923 --> 00:16:10.326 So you need to find that balance to see what works and what doesn't.
00:16:10.326 --> 00:16:15.172 So, yeah, to come back to your question, it's really important to see.
00:16:15.172 --> 00:16:19.376 You know, when you look at these technologies, how is it going to help the people in my country?
00:16:19.376 --> 00:16:25.030 Is it going to make the job easier for the clinician, and in in what way?
00:16:25.030 --> 00:16:26.220 Why would he go through this learning curve?
00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:28.707 Or you know why would he use your service?
00:16:28.707 --> 00:16:33.491 And then you must look if it's applicable for you as an individual manufacturer.
00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:35.422 You know some things.
00:16:35.422 --> 00:16:42.265 You can't print FDM, but if you find a gap and there's a need, you can fill it with FDM, so then you should do that.
00:16:42.265 --> 00:16:47.014 I also think with the components and the parts, it with ftm, so then you should do it.
00:16:47.014 --> 00:16:48.938 Um, I also think with the components and the parts.
00:16:48.938 --> 00:16:53.846 Yeah, so you know, there are things that I believe you can definitely replicate.
00:16:53.846 --> 00:16:54.587 You know the macy foot, of course.
00:16:54.587 --> 00:16:55.591 That's a great example of that.
00:16:55.591 --> 00:16:57.697 I saw another beautiful print on linkedin the other day.
00:16:57.697 --> 00:17:07.775 You know, someone printed a smo with a shoe around it, just printed out out of VarioShore or some kind of foaming filament, which is really great.
00:17:07.775 --> 00:17:14.386 Yeah, so there's room for that too, and I think also for other kinds of assistive devices.
00:17:14.386 --> 00:17:18.866 This is something you can print in your backyard with an average printer.
00:17:18.866 --> 00:17:24.182 Things that help people with neurological conditions or physical disabilities.
00:17:24.662 --> 00:17:38.936 I think one thing that you hit that I find interesting and I would say that I've evolved to that is I mean, exactly what you're saying is that we're not talking about super high-end printers here.
00:17:38.936 --> 00:17:42.546 We're talking about FDM printers that are readily available, printers that are readily available.
00:17:42.546 --> 00:17:45.690 What is your feeling, though, on?
00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:59.971 We always say you know people that are not clinicians, saying they provide a prosthesis because a clinician isn't involved out of their garage.
00:17:59.971 --> 00:18:04.019 I mean, I do think that there needs to be some sort of balance.
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:18.906 It's not that we don't like for me, like I do enjoy working for those people, and I think once we have a discussion, they realize oh, maybe I shouldn't be working out of my garage offering these free prostheses, because there's a lot more to it.
00:18:18.906 --> 00:18:40.076 I don't know how it is where you're at in South Africa, but what are your general thoughts about this idea of, yes, we're using an accessible technology when I say accessible, like you can go buy it, but you don't necessarily have the clinical abilities to make something that's relevant?
00:18:41.016 --> 00:18:42.797 Yeah, so that's very important.
00:18:42.797 --> 00:18:53.825 You know, I think in my journey with Ugani as well, if I had to go as a one-man show and go to a big company and say, hey guys, you know I printed this in my backyard they're going to think who's this guy?
00:18:53.825 --> 00:18:54.488 What is he doing?
00:18:54.488 --> 00:18:55.943 You know, a little.
00:18:55.943 --> 00:18:57.348 End of version 3.
00:18:57.348 --> 00:19:07.299 You know there's no proof of concept and that's the important thing you need to know these things are tried and tested and safe.
00:19:07.299 --> 00:19:15.494 So it's really important that you have the right partnerships and collaborations to be able to come with a product that you can say look, it has been created and we have tested it.
00:19:15.494 --> 00:19:16.943 That gives you some credibility.
00:19:17.566 --> 00:19:24.431 It's very much more difficult to just launch a project from scratch, especially in the FDM world.
00:19:24.431 --> 00:19:44.866 I think those guys who don't follow the careful, the people who aren't careful in what they do when they provide these devices, I think they just fall away anyway because they don't have that backing, they don't have that clinical perspective, they don't have the three million test results.
00:19:44.866 --> 00:19:52.303 You know it's just not there.
00:19:52.303 --> 00:19:54.671 So everyone at the end wants the best for their patients and you know they will select the best person for the job.
00:19:54.671 --> 00:19:59.950 Um, so I think it's really important that, in anyone who's going on this journey, look for something that's repeatable.
00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:13.627 If it looks a little bit questionable for you, go find the data, go see who the company, go and see who the guys are, who's the designers, who's the clinicians and what's their approach, and if it doesn't make sense to you then it won't work.
00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:19.088 Tell me and I think you've touched on it a little bit, but, yeah, tell me about Ortho Additive.
00:20:19.088 --> 00:20:29.624 You know, your, your company, on the additive side of things, kind of what are your, some of your um, your strengths, what, what are you looking to do?
00:20:29.624 --> 00:20:36.804 And then, uh, yeah, touch a little bit more on uh, what you're also doing, uh with ugani yeah.
00:20:36.824 --> 00:20:49.752 So the remember that I'm a practitioner myself and obviously I make use of these tools for my own practice, but you know me, I think this is just a quick start-up for now.
00:20:49.752 --> 00:21:04.486 Obviously, there's a lot of growth expected and what we try to do is, apart from as I've explained, try to identify where there's a gap, where there's a need, and try to fill that with the benefits that come with additive manufacturing.
00:21:04.486 --> 00:21:16.884 And I think the future will hold, you know, for us, creating a digital asset library and workflows that we've created in free form and save for all the things that you know.
00:21:16.884 --> 00:21:24.740 We know that the South Africans would want, and that starts small, but it grows quickly.
00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:29.041 So I'm looking for other people to collaborate with me, other designers.
00:21:29.041 --> 00:21:37.411 I'm sure in the future things will get busy on the floor as well, so we'll have to get a technician in Someone's around the show there For me.
00:21:37.411 --> 00:21:42.058 I just want to grow the business, reach out to other people where there's a need.
00:21:42.338 --> 00:21:48.116 We're currently doing some work with the government, and that's where Ugani also comes in.
00:21:48.116 --> 00:21:53.438 So again, I've decided to partner well, not partner with them, collaborate with them, because they've got the proof of concept.
00:21:53.438 --> 00:21:56.914 It's something that I can approach someone with and say, look, it has been done.
00:21:56.914 --> 00:22:06.178 So at the moment we're doing a project with the government with the Autistic and Prosthetic Centre.
00:22:06.178 --> 00:22:07.442 Here We've got 25 patients that we're doing for them.
00:22:07.442 --> 00:22:08.446 They're also very interested in the technology.
00:22:08.446 --> 00:22:11.419 They really want to see if they want to buy into the technology themselves.
00:22:11.419 --> 00:22:17.116 They want to get used to the process, get used to using the software until they feel comfortable.
00:22:17.116 --> 00:22:22.034 So this is a great trial period for us and, yeah, for Ugani.
00:22:22.034 --> 00:22:31.200 I'm just reaching out to other NGOs, other government facilities who are interested in the benefits of using additive manufacturing, offering them a service.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:39.594 And then the other products that we're working on right now are currently doing a collaboration with a very big company in Cape Town called Shonaquip.
00:22:39.594 --> 00:22:48.181 They're a social enterprise and they make products wheelchairs, seating, positioning devices for people with disabilities.
00:22:48.181 --> 00:22:58.093 Their market is mainly also NGOs and government and we are trying to develop some 3D printed products for seating and positioning as well.
00:22:58.093 --> 00:23:01.381 So you know, that's kind of one side of it.
00:23:01.381 --> 00:23:11.838 But for the private sector, I want to be able to let them go and select a few designs on the website that they enjoy, that they think looks nice will benefit their patients.
00:23:11.838 --> 00:23:14.679 They send us a scan measurement form.
00:23:14.679 --> 00:23:22.355 You know we have a clinical discussion one-on-one, and we go ahead and design this brace and provide it to them out of our digital asset.
00:23:23.592 --> 00:23:32.242 So I think it's very important that if you want to go into the digital aspect, especially here in South Africa, you really need to go in multiple directions.
00:23:32.242 --> 00:23:34.637 You can't just be advanced 3D.
00:23:34.637 --> 00:23:36.215 You still have to be a clinician.
00:23:36.215 --> 00:23:38.898 You still have to be able to provide a product.
00:23:38.898 --> 00:23:40.547 I mean, as you mentioned earlier, you still have to be a clinician, you still have to be able to provide a product.
00:23:40.547 --> 00:23:46.237 I mean, as you mentioned earlier, you guys are not only printing 3D printers, orthotics and prosthetics, you're doing other projects as well.
00:23:46.237 --> 00:23:53.616 And if you do this, if you do this like multifaceted system, then you can really afford these things.
00:23:53.616 --> 00:23:58.434 You can really maintain all the licenses, all the designers, all the people on the floor.
00:23:58.434 --> 00:24:03.402 So it's organic growth and it's slow, but we've got a vision and we're working towards it.
00:24:03.569 --> 00:24:06.897 So on that we have a lot of people.
00:24:06.897 --> 00:24:14.930 We have people that listen all over the world and one of the most interesting discussions that we always have and people will ping me and say, well, that was pretty interesting.
00:24:14.930 --> 00:24:20.886 How does one get a prosthesis and how is it funded?
00:24:20.886 --> 00:24:25.176 So you mentioned a little bit about the government stuff.
00:24:25.176 --> 00:24:27.121 You've mentioned some social enterprise stuff.
00:24:27.121 --> 00:24:29.452 I'm guessing there's some cash pay stuff.
00:24:29.452 --> 00:24:31.898 How does it work in South Africa?
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.092 Yes, our reimbursement is not bad at all.
00:24:35.092 --> 00:24:40.723 To be quite frank, we have very good clinical tariffs that we can bill.
00:24:40.723 --> 00:24:48.423 So we also have NAPI code system, which is our database of products that you can resell.
00:24:48.423 --> 00:24:55.002 So essentially, if I create a wheelchair or something, I create a NAPI code for that.
00:24:55.002 --> 00:24:56.614 I load it up to the system.
00:24:56.614 --> 00:25:00.592 The clinicians can then build this and process it with the insurance.
00:25:01.313 --> 00:25:03.979 The market in South Africa is quite divided.
